Quote of the week: "He made me a Sith Lord and named me Darth Revan. I killed for him--I turned on the Republic--but I've found redemption." - Revan talking about his past.

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niedziela, 26 lutego 2012

Character Spotlight #1 - Lord Vitiate vs Darth Sidious

"The Sith Emperor was a Dark Lord of the Sith who reconstituted the Sith Empire after the Great Hyperspace War and went on to rule it for more than a millennium, becoming, arguably, the longest reigning Sith Lord in galactic history. According to legend, he was born Tenebrae, the illegitimate son of Lord Dramath of Medriaas and a poor farm woman, and was granted the title of Lord Vitiate by then-reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, Marka Ragnos."

Source: Wookieepedia - The Star Wars Wiki

Lord Vitiate: the ultimate badass or the mary sue-like character?

Before you even consider to join this endless debate, I strongly suggest you make yourself familiar with this following short text:

Q: Who’s stronger – Darth Bane, Darth Revan or Darth Vader?
A: It’s a tie. Seriously, I can’t answer this. First, it’s not really up to me to make that kind of call. Second, it really depends on the situation. You can probably find rule books for various Star Wars role-playing games that will give you stats allowing you to compare relative strength. But from an artistic and dramatic standpoint, this kind of question has no “right” answer. Each character has strengths and weaknesses, and they grow and change as their stories progress. On any given day, at any given time, under any given circumstance anyone can win or lose. That’s what dramatic conflict is all about. 
   Source: Drew Karpyshyn's website FAQ 


Now, to begin with - I am aware that George Lucas, the creater of Star Wars universe stated the following fact: Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord to ever live. Period. So this sentence alone should technically disqualify all arguments against Vitiate being superior to Sidious. Lucas has the final say in those things.

On top of that, let me show you some direct quotes from the official canon sources:

"The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed."
-- Death Star, page 76. Emphasis mine.


"...Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page ??? (I don't own the book). Emphasis mine.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72. 

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

But hold on...

When Sidious was labeled as the 'most powerful sith lord ever', Vitiate's character was not even invented yet. You have to realize that the Star Wars universe is constantly expanding - some stuff will get retconned to lesser or greater extent. It is inevitable. As the time passes, some new, far more powerful character than Vitiate might be created. Noone is arguing with that. Actually that is the whole point I am trying to make here.

But for the time being, just read "Revan" novel and play through Jedi Knight's whole storyline and after you do those things ask yourself who is really more powerful - Vitiate or Sidious. 

Here is some very intriguing quote from codex entry related to the Emperor and his ultimate plan:

Every decision the Sith Emperor has made for the last millennium has been in the service of one dark goal: the complete annihilation of every living thing in the galaxy. The Emperor's desire is not destruction for its own sake, however. He is not a nihilist. The Emperor intends to feed on the galaxy's extinction and draw that energy into himself, giving him true immortality--and a godlike mastery of the Force.
The Jedi can only speculate on what the Emperor will do if his plan succeeds. Does he intend to preserve any followers, or live on alone? With such unlimited power, could he plant the seeds of life and raise a new galaxy from the old one's ashes?

The Emperor in Descent.png

Basically the Emperor wants to exterminate every living being in the galaxy by performing a ritual that will begin on the planet Belsavis. He will consume entire life present on Belsavis and after that, nothing will stop him. Of course Jedi Knight i.e. the player stops him. If Vitiate's plans would succeed and if he would have managed to sustain his ritual by ensuring the death of trillions, he would become as it says in the codex: godlike

After you find out more about the Emperor you realize what kind of creature of pure evil he is. The way he speaks, everything about him is just terrifying and causes chills to go down your spine. I mean, he killed a sith lord when he was like what, twelve years old? When he was an infant, his eyes were filled with terrible blackness and void (Wth?! Seriously, how sick and creepy is that?).

Emperor Force.png

He is unlike any being that was ever born, when Lord Scourge who was a Sith Lord took a not even second long glimpse at the Emperor, he cried out like a child. 

Let me give me you some quotes from the "Revan" novel about Vitiate:
"As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self. Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child."
Emperor before a lightsaber.png 
"Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor's unfathomable power. "
Some of his abilities on top of my head: 

- Being able to perform most complex sith rituals ever attempted (consuming life of the entire planet - billions of lives beings destroyed in matters of seconds). 

The Emperor's Voice.png 

- Being immortal? "My life spans millennia. Legions have risen to test me. […] My ascendance is inevitable. A day, a year, a millennium—it matters not. I hold the patience of stone and the will of stars. Your striving is insignificant. Let your death be the same." - The Sith Emperor, to a lone Jedi sent to kill him. Also from what I understand, it is almost impossible to completely kill the Emperor. His essence will always live on, attempting to find another host it can possess. For sure the Emperor got some weakness that can be exploited in order to defeat him, as everyone, but noone knows what it is yet.

- Being able to mind control pretty much anyone (though it is possible to resist the Emperor, as an example: Revan being the proof of that).

I mean, don't get me wrong: Sidious definitely achieved a lot with his political capabilities, intellect and manipulation skills. But it's hard to be sure that he was more powerful than all other ancient sith lords who ever lived, or even his former master Darth Plagueis. Plagueis discovered the ultimate secret of immortality - Palpatine did not. Hell, Plagueis could even bend midi-chlorians to his own will in order to create life out of nothing - and he probably created the most powerful force user to ever exist. Palpatine knew that he could lose face to face duel with Plagueis so he used his cunning to kill him in his sleep. Also, I find it hard to believe that Palpatine could be even a match for Lord Vitiate. We know very little about the Sith Emperor (the TOR one) and yet it seemes that he is capable of wiping out entire life in the galaxy. I don't think Palpatine comes even close to that, all he gets are some over powered abilities that I do not know where and how he managed to learn/obtain. Sometimes I get the feeling that in Expanded Universe, Palpatine is really a mary sue-like character. Seriously, who can create hyperspace wormholes? Sidious in EU is just absurd. I am sorry to say this but it is true. I love his character but some authors just crossed the line. Yes, Vitiate got some OP abilities in his arsenal as well, but I would say that his back-story allowes us to imagine that he is actually capable of such prowess. A for Palpatine that is not the case, at least for me.

You also have to look at this from another angle. Lets say that Sidious could defeat Vitiate in face to face duel (or the other way) but what about other skills? Palpatine managed to transform the Republic into his own Galactic Empire and at the same time do something no sith ever managed - wipe out 
almost entire jedi order. Vitiate on the other hand also accomplished something to behold. He escaped with handful of morally broke people and over the course of thousand years managed to create the most powerful empire to ever exist. He created entire civilization from literally nothing. It all comes down to your very own definition of power. Power can vary a lot you know...  Also, I think it is safe to assume that the Galactic Empire from the original Star Wars movies is based on Vitiate's Empire. I know that in reality it is the other way around, but in our fantasy world The Great Galactic war occured way BEFORE The Galactic Civil war. 

I tried to keep this article/debate as non-biased as possible, attempting to show you both sides of the picture but as you probably noticed by now,  my personal opinion on this matter is as following: Sidious is overrated. There you go, I said it! know I may get bashed for this. If you want to call me a Vitiate fanboy, feel free to do so. I just think that he is the one who deserves the title of the most powerful sith lord. He is the ultimate badass - nothing to add here. :)

To hell with being objective! It is impossible to avoid some dose of subjectivism. Just two small things I noticed that I wanted to add to the whole discussion:

If Palpatine is so mighty and exceptional duelist, how come he lost to Mace Windu? Yes, I know that Windu is "one of the finest swordsman of the jedi order" and all. But still, Sidious lost. And don't tell me that he would have won without Anakin's interference because it is clearly not what movie portrays.
Also, some people say that Palpatine's 'lightning bolts' are the most powerful ones in whole SW universe. It's one of the arguments for Palpatine's superiority over Vitiate. I mean, really? He electrocuted Luke Skywalker with them for like half an hour and the guy still managed to survive. And no, Palpatine was not playing with Luke or attempting to influence his will. He decided to kill Skywalker because he understood that he could not turn him to the dark side, this line kind of confirmed that: "The Emperor: And now, young Skywalker... you will die." (at least that is how I interpreted this scene from RotJ). Anyway, just read what I wrote before about Sith Emperor, (information coming from OFFICIAL GAME CODEX). Could Palpatine really become godlike like Vitiate and create new galaxy from the ashes by himself? Could he wipe out entire life in the galaxy? I don't think those statements are mere hyperbols. I mean, while they never actually happened, Vitiate indeed had potential to perform them and was in fact very close in doing so if it weren't for the invervention of Jedi Knight. 

And most important of all, was Palpatine really immortal as well as Vitiate? Immortal meaning actually IMMORTAL - from what I know he needed to use clones in order to prelong his life (I don't know a lot about EU post EP6 tbh so I may be wrong about that).

Emperor Throne.pngI know I am repeating myself but when you read "Revan" novel and play through JK's storyline you get this feeling about the Sith Emperor - he is like this terrible being of pure darkness and void, almost not human but monster. You don't get the same feeling with Palpatine (at least I don't feel this way about his character). Palpatine is just an ordinary person (well, you know what I mean). I am not saying that he is not a powerful sith lord who accomplished A LOT, but to me he is clearly not even half as 'terrifying' as Vitiate.

I am pretty sure that it is BioWare's intention to make us feel that Vitiate is in fact the most powerful, evil and dangerous sith/living being to ever exist (including the movies and all post EP6 expanded universe).

Emperor verslagen.png

Still, as I said before - it all comes down to your subjective opinion and the way you interpret canon lore. It's a fantasy world, you can think whatever you want! As far as I am concerned, you may claim ewok that helped Leia (was he called Wicket?) to be more powerful than both Vitiate and Sidious together.

And what do you think? Who is more powerful according to you: Vitiate or Sidious? Post what you think in the comments below! Make sure to include some constructive, logical arguments in your posts if you want to persuade people who don't think the same way as you do. Don't just write: "Vitiate/Sidious because that's what I think!" But please, let's keep this discussion as close to civilized as possible.  

30 komentarzy:

  1. Sidious will always be more powerful than Vitiate because he is Geroge Lucas's creation. And this man won't allow some character developed by third-party company to be more powerful than his mighty sith lord from the movies. GL canon > what you think. Anyway, good read you made some valid points.

    1. Yes, you are right saying, that GL canon is absolute canon. But we should ask ourselves: Did he even know that Vitiate exist?

      Example: Someone told me, that an elephant is the biggest mammal in the world. Why should I believe him blindly, if he does not know about the blue whale?

      Lucas can tell, that Sidious is the most powerful sith ever. But for me, no one is the most powerful sith ever. I never liked the idea of power levels in Star Wars. Of course, that is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to his own.

      Personally, I find Drew's explanation better.

      Anyway, this is an interesting article with good points.

  2. Odpowiedzi
    1. Thanks, I do my best. Btw, that character spotlight is very good idea. Looking forward to other characters from TOR and KoTOR series.

  3. I agree with the article that Vitiate is indeed more powerful than Sidious for the above explained reasons. However, I disagree that Sidious is overrated. He is the culmination of thousands of years of Sith work starting with Darth Bane. Having said that I believe that Sidious was very powerful and probably the second most powerful Sith behind Vitiate.

    1. Yeah, I can agree with that. It is just that while I was trying to show that Vitiate is more powerful than Sidious, I portrayed Palpatine in more 'negative' light shall we say. Don't get me wrong, I love Palpatine's character and he is almost equally intriguing and awesome as Vitiate. Though I still think that some his abilities from EU are close to ridiculous. Hope this clears up my standpoint on all this.

    2. I can agree that some of Palpatine's EU powers might seem a bit ridiculous but they do seem possible considering the Vitiate was able to extinguish all life on an entire planet and he was planning on doing the same thing with the whole galaxy. Also you have to remember that Vitiate was able to impose his will on basically anyone he wanted and he was able to do this with multiple people which when you consider it seems almost hard to believe even though I agree he was the most powerful Sith ever.

    3. As I wrote in the above blog entry: "Yes, Vitiate got some OP abilities in his arsenal as well, but I would say that his back-story allowes us to imagine that he is actually capable of such prowess. A for Palpatine that is not the case, at least for me."

      When you read the description of Vitiate as a mere child and his feats during that time, you can imagine what he is capable of.

      Sidious on the other hand was not as "special" as Vitiate. He was a normal human child with great potential and powerful connection to the force. I think it was stated somewhere in canon lore that birth of Palpatine caused imbalance of the force in itself. But he was still human and to me Vitiate is definitely not human. He is a lot more than that. He is more kind of twisted than Palpatine. I think you catch my drift. ;)

    4. I get what you're saying. I agree with you about Vitiate and how it is plausible that he is that powerful. However, as i stated in my first post, Palpatine is the culmination of thousands of years of Sith work. All of their power and secrets passed down from one generation to the next. I also believe that you said you weren't that familiar with the EU as you could be so I suggest going to a site called Wookieepedia and looking up the sith and their powers. Also some other Sith like Bane and others were capable of causing giant storms that could devastate a planet and then you have the Thought Bomb which extinguished all life with in the immediate area and could also be felt by force users over vast distances. Again I do agree with the points you make but try going to that site and looking some stuff up. By the way I think this is a great conversation we are having and I thank you for it.

    5. I am not that well faimiliar with EU beyond EP6 (so that means The New Republic era, The New Jedi Order era, The Legacy era). Still, I know the rough outline of all the events from those eras that transpired - in fact from the reading articles on wookieepedia.

      That is why I said that I could be more familiar wtih that part of EU in the first place - I just did not read post-RotJ books MYSELF. I looked up most of the stuff on web. But as far as it goes for the Old Republic era I know pretty much all of it (there is no book/comic I did not read from that time ).

      And from my perspective you can't know something very well without experiencing it yourself meaning that you have to actually read the books in order to fully comprehend them. Reading some stuff on wookiepedida for example, won't give you all sides of the picture. Same thing goes for reading leaked summaries - some people said that Revan novel sucked by doing just that and condemned it without even reading book for themselves! Eh, sad...

      We are going a bit offtopic though. As for the conversation itself, thank you too I guess lol.

    6. just so you know i have read all of the books and stuff i don't just go on wookieepedia but you're right we are getting off topic

    7. But I never said that you did not read any books nor claimed that you got your knowledge only from reading wookieepedia. In fact I was refering to myself. :)

  4. I think (as you stated somewhere) power is overrated.

    The Emperor became immortal trough a Sith ritual he used to consume a planet. And to perform this ritual he had to trick the Dark Council into helping him. In his situation Plapatine could have done the same. Bane could have done the same. Every powerful Sith lord could, they just need to know the ritual and have some other powerful Sith lords to exploit.

    It is the same on Belsavis. It is a ritual which needs millions of simultanous deaths. The Emperor sends his troops to sabotage the hyperspace generator of the planet. If Palpatine knew the ritual and had performed the first one, he could have done the same.

    When you set up one against the other it depends on the circumstances. I think in direct lightsaber battle Sidious would beat Vitiate like the Jedi Knight did. But both wouldn't let it come to this. Sidious probably would try Revans Foundry plan to defeat the Emperor.

    A comment on Sidious lightning: I think Sidious wanted Luke to die painfully. If he just wanted him dead, he could snap his neck or throw him down into the reactor or maybe even just stop his heart.

    TL;DR Vitiate is more powerful then Palpatine but if Palpatine would have performed the same rituals he would be like him.

    1. You have some valid points in there but I don't think its that simple. Performing a ritual is not something you do just like that - it requires both extreme focus and mastery of the force. I am not so sure that it would be that easy for example for Palpatine to perform such an ritual. That is my interpretation at least.

    2. Maybe. But it seems that Darth Bane, clearly not the best in focus and Force mastery, learned two powerful rituals. This makes me think that, with enough training and preperation, any strong Sith can learn any rituals.
      BUT Palpatine had no interest in learning these rituals. Likewise, Vitiate had no interest in learning political cunning like Palpatine.

    3. Vitiate is beyond politics, he just simply does not really care. Though it is not like he is helpless when it comes to being able to manage the Empire. He established himself as a absolute, unquestionable monarchic ruler and noone even dared to say something against him.

      I also believe that his real intention behind forming the dark council was far from what one may firstly think. The purpose of the dark council was not to help Vitiate maintain the Empire. I mean it was, but it wasn't the original purpose that Vitiate intended. Dark council served as a mere distraction and the most powerful/intelligent/perceptive individuals that could pose a threat to Vitiate's rule and question him were busy fighting each other. After all we know that the Sith Emperor encouraged rivalry among members of the dark council - he did it for a reason. At least that is how I see it.

  5. The way I see it, they are one in the same. Just a different incarnation of the same evil entity. You mentioned it here:

    - Being immortal? "My life spans millennia. Legions have risen to test me. […] My ascendance is inevitable. A day, a year, a millennium—it matters not. I hold the patience of stone and the will of stars. Your striving is insignificant. Let your death be the same." - The Sith Emperor, to a lone Jedi sent to kill him. Also from what I understand, it is almost impossible to completely kill the Emperor. His essence will always live on, attempting to find another host it can possess. For sure the Emperor got some weakness that can be exploited in order to defeat him, as everyone, but noone knows what it is yet.

    The host may have different nuances, and particulars, but they are both "THE" Emperor. The hate and evil that inhabits the spirit may learn and formulate different ways it wants to rule the galaxy, and the host does as the spirit commands. So if you want to compare the hosts fighting in a duel, go for it, but in the end my OPINION is that they and previous emperors are probably inhabited by the same dark force. So there really isn't a point of who is more powerful than the other, because they are the same in the end...

    Maybe not from their beginning as a child, but as they worked their way down the dark paths of the dark side of the force, the emperor found them and took over.

    Again, Just my opinion

  6. I'm sorry, I know this is just your opinion but I strongly disagree. That would make no sense what so ever if u look at the history of the Sith after Vitiate.

  7. Hmmmm I think that they are both equal. Or even maybe Palpatine is in fact Vitiate (his future incarnation). If this is true it would be funny to see all the people who constantly argue about who is superior from the two hehe.

  8. I haven't read any books about Palpi, but I read Revan, and yes Drew really writes him as the most terrible thing ever and made a huge impression on me. I was shocked! xD He is the most badass one imo.

  9. if sidious was so powerful, how was vader able to pick him up and just toss him down an elevator shaft? You would think that sidious would have some way to stop vader, but he just kept on shocking nothing.

  10. I think everyone's opinions are good. I must say that both Vitiate and Sidious were VERY VERY Powerful. In different ways. Sidious was sadistic and reveled in everyone's suffering. Vitiate wanted to obliterate the galaxy to achieve god-like powers. Everyone has already stated objective observations (canon or not).
    I have my own opinion.
    I think that the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith (taking into account ONLY raw dark side power - not Alchemy, not inherent dark magic affinity, not political manipulation, not lightsaber skills) was Marka Ragnos. Vitiate, Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Simus, etc. all obeyed him under the Golden Sith Empire. He killed everyone that challenged him and has appeared at different points of galactic history through unknown magical means. He was an abnormal half-breed, a freak of the dark side and of nature. Plagueis had a vision of him when he visited the Valley of Sith Lords. Ragnos questioned his legitimacy as a dark lord before growling and disappearing. Sidious oftentimes visited this valley as well.
    "Sidious often visited the valley to increase his strength at his "place of power," and on occasion sought advice from the spirits of the Dark Lords." (Star Wars Battlefront: Renegade Squadron)
    Why would the most powerful Sith ever (canonly Sidious) visit "weaker" Dark Lords and risk getting trapped and ambushed?
    It is ambiguous. But everyone must remember that George Lucas's vision were his 6 movies (especially his original 3). He himself states that he has never read a novel or entertained the expanded universe. I know what he says is canon. But if he says that smurfs erupted from Sidious's finger tips, are we to nullify our sense of objective, point by point, naturalistic reasoning?
    I think that a versus scenario would favor a powerful Dark Lord who was also a warlord. Why? Because war and battle breeds fighting skills and powers. One on one, I think Dark Lords like Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, Vitiate (who wasn't really a warlord, but acquired thousands of years of magic and power), and Bane would have beaten Sidious. But Sidious was more successful than all of them.
    So...in a way...if complete control of everything is power...then Sidious was the most powerful.

  11. Acctually, it should be quite obvious to anyone who truly takes time to notice that Sidious allowed Mace to appear to have won. I mean really, he wiped out 3 Jedi Council members before Mace in just seconds. He even defeated Yoda who was far more powerful than Mace. The idea that Palpatine could not be more powerful because he supposedly couldn't defeat Mace us absurd. His whole plan was for Anakin to turn to the Darkside, and he knew to do so Anakin would have to be decieved into attacking Mace, so Sidious intentionally allowed Mace to win so that when Anakin came in it would appear that he was the helpess victim. Never the less, Vitiate was no doubt a powerful Dark Lord.

    1. Actually, Mace windu is more powerful than master yoda. Anakin also refer that mace windu is strong while master yoda is wise. Mace windu used to be a Master of the Order, which he soon gave to master yoda

  12. And no, Palpatine was not playing with Luke or attempting to influence his will. He decided to kill Skywalker because he understood that he could not turn him to the dark side, this line kind of confirmed that: "The Emperor: And now, young Skywalker... you will die."

    I think he was. Read this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul#Ultimate_test

    It talks about how he made Darth Maul believe he was going to die as part of his final test.

  13. As far as I'm concerned if the "creators" will keep coming up with ideas like that, soon we'll see Sith Super Sayian 4 , 5, 6 etc. Everytime some wannabe writter will try and have an impact on the EU, he will think of some "superior" character that's ALOT better than the others before him. We've already seen that in The Clone Wars Cartoon with characters like Father, Son and Doughter - but it was handled well with a nice touch of uncertinity. In OT Jedi and Sith are powerfull but not exagarated, what we see in NT is even more powerfull characters, but what is happening in games NOW (mainly TOR and both TFU's) is beyond ridiculous. While the concept of being as powerfull as Revan or The Exile (Meetra Surik... who thought of that?) was awesome and still not-so-over-the-top then The Emperor is like jumping the shark while on a tyranosaur... With guns blazing. Unnecessary. Nhilus kills planets? Then The Emperor will kill the whole friggin' galaxy!!! Yeeey... BioWare really failed with the story aspect for TOR.

  14. It states above that Anakin is the most powerful force user ever(or possibly is), we need more literature about his amazing feats then because for possibly being the most powerful force user ever he had a life that pales in comparison to Sidious, Bane, Vitiate, Revan, Yoda, and all the other elite Jedi and Sith legends.

  15. He electrocuted Luke Skywalker with them for like half an hour and the guy still managed to survive. And no, Palpatine was not playing with Luke

    ---this shows how powerful Luke is that he can survive the lightning powers of the most powerful Sith. :)

  16. Its because like you said... the time-line got written backwards in many ways. Lucus didnt relize just how BIG the star wars balloon would swell..

  17. I believe that the expanded universe gets more twisted and bizarre every time as it grows bigger. The original trilogy seems like a child's movie compared to the true darkness that you feel when you learn about Darth Nihilu's hunger or Lord Vitiate's power. Therefore, I believe when the original trilogy was made, Sidious was the most evil thing they could imagine, and thus they called him the most powerful sith ever. But as the SW universe has gone growing, they made much stronger guys. So I think that maybe Sidious would have to be reconned. I mean, if the guys who made SWTOR re-wrote the Sidious history and the original trilogy, he would probable be as wrecked and bizarre as Vitiate is, and maybe worse.